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30 September 1966

This talk begins with Mother’s comments on the following letter of Sri Aurobindo.

“… although St. Paul had remarkable mystic experiences and, certainly, much profound spiritual knowledge (profound rather than wide, I think)—I would not swear to it that he is referring to the supramentalised body (physical body). Perhaps to the supramental body or to some other luminous body in its own space and substance, which he found sometimes as if enveloping him and abolishing this body of death which he felt the material envelope to be. This versefn“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
“So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” I Corinthians, 16. 53, 54.
like many others is capable of several interpretations and might refer to a quite supraphysical experience. The idea of a transformation of the body occurs in different traditions, but I have never been quite sure that it meant the change in this very matter. There was a yogi sometime ago in this region who taught it, but he hoped when the change was complete, to disappear in light. The Vaishnavas speak of a divine body which will replace this one when there is the complete siddhi. But, again, is this a divine physical or supraphysical body? At the same time there is no obstacle in the way of supposing that all these ideas, intuitions, experiences point to, if they do not exactly denote, the physical transformation.”fnLetter dated 24 December 1930. Letters on Yoga, Cent. Vol. 24, p. 1237.

It is strange, this was the very subject of my meditations these days—not deliberate, they are imposed from above. Because through the entire passage from the plant to the animal and from the animal to man (especially from the animal to man), essentially the differences in form are minimal; the true transformation lies in the intervention of another agent of consciousness. All the differences between the life of the animal and the life of man come from the intervention of the Mind; but the substance is essentially the same and it obeys the same laws of formation and construction. For example, there is not much difference between a calf that is formed in the womb of the cow and the child that is formed in the womb of the mother. There is a difference, that of the intervention of the Mind; but if we look at a physical being, that is to say, visible as the physical is visible now and having the same density (for example, a body having no need of circulation, or of bones—particularly these two: the skeletons and blood circulation), it is difficult to conceive. And as long as it is like that, with this circulation of the blood, this action of the heart, one could imagine—one can imagine—by a power of the Spirit, the renewal of force, of energy, through means other than food; this is conceivable; but the rigidity, the solidity of the body—how is that possible without the skeleton?… In that case, this would be a transformation infinitely greater than that from the animal to man; this would be a passage from man to a being who would not be built in the same manner, who would no longer function in the same manner, who would be like the condensation and concretisation of “something”.… Up to now, that corresponds to nothing we have yet seen physically, unless the scientists have found something I do not know about.

One can conceive of a light or a new force giving to the cells a kind of spontaneous life and spontaneous force.

Yes, that is what I say, food can disappear; that one can conceive.

But the whole body could be animated by this force. The body could remain supple, for instance. Even retaining its bone-structure, it could remain supple, have the suppleness of a child.

But the child because of that cannot remain standing! He cannot exert himself. What will replace the bone-structure, for instance?

It could be the same elements, but having suppleness—elements whose firmness would not come from hardness but from the force of light, no?

Yes, that is possible.… Only, what I mean to say is that perhaps the thing will be done through a large number of new creations. For instance, the passage from man to this being will perhaps be accomplished through all kinds of other intermediaries. It is the leap, you understand, that seems to me tremendous.

I conceive very well a being who could, by spiritual power, the power of his inner being, absorb the necessary forces, renew himself and remain always young; that one conceives very well, even for giving a certain suppleness so as to be able to change the form, if need be. But the total disappearance of this system of construction immediately—immediately from the one to the other—that seems to be… that seems to require stages.

Evidently, unless something happens (which we are obliged to call a “miracle”, because one cannot understand how) how can a body like ours become a body wholly built and moved by a higher force and without a material support? This [Mother holds the skin of her hand between her fingers], how can this change into this other thing?… That appears impossible.

That appears miraculous, but…

Yes, in all my experiences I understand very well the possibility of no longer having the need for food, the disappearance of all 48this process (for example, changing the method of absorption, that is possible), but how to change the structure?

But that does not seem to me impossible.

That does not seem to you impossible?

No, perhaps it is imagination, but I imagine very well a spiritual power entering into it and producing a kind of luminous inflation, and all this suddenly blooming like a flower. This body, shrivelled up towards itself, opens out, becomes radiant, supple, luminous.

Supple, plastic, yes, that one can conceive, it can become plastic; that is to say, the form will not be fixed as now. All that one can conceive, but…

But I see it very well like a kind of luminous blooming: the Light must have this force. And it destroys in no way the present structure.

But visible? Which one would be able to touch?

Yes, only, it is like an opening out. What was closed opens like a flower, that’s all. But it is always the structure of the flower, only it is wholly opened and it is luminous, no?

[Mother shakes her head and remains silent for a moment.] I have not had the experience, I do not know.

I am absolutely convinced, because I have had experiences which proved it to me, that the life of this body—the life which makes it move and change—can be replaced by a force; that is to say, one can create a kind of immortality, and the wear and tear can also disappear. These two things are possible: the 49power of life can come and the wear and tear can disappear. And that can come psychologically, through a total obedience to the divine Impulsion, which enables one to have at each moment the force that is needed, to do the thing that is needed—all that, all that, these are certitudes; it is not a hope, it is not an imagination: these are certitudes. Well, one must educate and slowly transform, change one’s habits. It is possible, all that is possible. But only, how long would it take to do away with the necessity (let us take this problem only) of the skeleton? That seems to me to be a matter still very far away. That is to say, many intermediary stages will be necessary. Sri Aurobindo said that life could be prolonged indefinitely. That, yes. But we are not yet built with something that wholly escapes dissolution, the necessity of dissolution. The bones are very durable, they can even last a thousand years if they are in favourable conditions, it is understood; but that does not mean immortality in principle. You understand what I mean?

No. You believe that it must be a non-physical substance?

I do not know if it is non-physical, but it is a physical that I do not know! And it is not the substance as we know it now, particularly not the construction that we know now.

I do not know, but if it must be a physical body, as Sri Aurobindo has said; it seemed to me (but perhaps it is day-dreaming) that it might be like a lotus-bud, for example; our present body is like a lotus-bud that is quite small, closed, hard; and it opens out, it becomes a flower.

Yes, but that, my child, that is…

What cannot this Light do with the elements that it has? They are the same things, the same elements, but transfigured.

But vegetable things are not immortal.

No, it was only a comparison.

Well, yes!

There is this question only. Perpetual change, that I conceive; I could even conceive of a flower that does not fade, but it is this principle of immortality… That is to say, in essence, a life which escapes from the necessity of renewing itself: that it is the eternal Force which manifests itself directly and eternally, and yet it should be this, a physical body [Mother touches her skin with her fingers].

I understand very well a progressive change and that one could make of this substance something which might renew itself from within to the outside and eternally—and that, that would be immortality; but only, it seems to me that between what is now, as we are, and this other mode of life, there have to be many stages. Well, these cells, with all the consciousness and experience they have now, if you ask them, for example, “Is there anything that you cannot do?”, they will answer in their sincerity, “No, what the Lord wills, I can do.” This is their state of consciousness. But in appearance it is otherwise. The personal experience is this: whatever I do with the Presence of the Lord, I do without effort, without difficulty, without fatigue, without waste, like this [Mother indicates a wide harmonious rhythm]; only it is still open to all the influences from outside and the body is obliged to do things that are not directly the expression of the supreme Impulsion; from there come the fatigue, the friction.… So, a supramental body suspended in a world that is not the earth—it is not that!


Something is needed that has the power to resist the contagion. Man cannot resist the contagion of the animal, he cannot, he 51is in constant relation. Well, this being, how will he do it?… It would seem, for a long time—for a long time—he will still be subjected to the laws of contagion.

I do not know, but it does not seem to me impossible.


I feel that this Power of Light being there, what can touch it?

But all the world will disappear! It is that, is it not?

When That comes, when the Lord is there, there is not one in a thousand who would not be frightened. And not in the reasoning, not in the thought: like that, in the substance. Then supposing, supposing that it is so, that a being becomes the condensation and expression, a formula of the supreme Power, the supreme Light—what would happen!

Well, that is the whole problem.


Because I do not see the difficulty of transformation in itself. It seems to me rather the difficulty of the world.

If everything could be transformed at the same time, that would be all right, but it is not obviously like that. If one being was transformed all alone…

Yes, that would be unbearable, perhaps.


My feeling (it is a kind of feeling-sensation) is that there should be intermediary stages.


And then, when you see how man had to fight against the whole of Nature in order to exist, you have the feeling that these beings—those who will understand them, who will help them—will have with them a relation of devotion, attachment, service, as animals have for men. But those who will not love them… they will be dangerous beings. I remember, once I had a very clear vision of the precarious situation of these new beings, and I had said (it was before 1956, before the descent of the supramental power), I had said, “The Supramental will first manifest itself in its aspect of Power, because it will be indispensable for the safety of the beings.” And indeed it is Power that descended first—Power and Light: Light that gives Knowledge and Power.

It is a thing that I am feeling more and more: the necessity of intermediate periods.… It is quite evident that something is in the process of happening, but it is not the “something” that has been seen and foreseen and which will be the culmination; it is one of the stages that is going to come about, it is not the culmination.

Sri Aurobindo also has said that first of all there will come the power to prolong life at will (it is much more subtle and wonderful than that), but that is a state of consciousness which is in the process of being established; it is a kind of relation, and of constant, established contact with the supreme Lord; and that abolishes the sense of wear and tear and replaces it by an extraordinary flexibility, an extraordinary plasticity. But the state of spontaneous immortality is not possible—not possible, at least for the present. This structure must change into something other than this; and in order to change into something other than this—in the way things are happening, it will take long. It may go faster than in the past, but even admitting that the movement rushes forward, even then it will take time (according to our notion of time). And what is, besides, quite worth noticing, is that one must change one’s sense of time if one is to be in the state of consciousness where wearing out does not 53exist; one enters into a state where time no longer has the same reality. It is something else. It is very special, it is an uncountable present. Even this habit that one has, of thinking beforehand or of foreseeing what is going to happen, is a stumbling-block, is a clinging to the old manner of being.

So many, so many habits to change.

The integral realisation will come about only when one can be divine spontaneously. Oh! To be divine spontaneously, without turning to see that one is so, having passed beyond the stage where one wants to be so.